Leadership Wisdom in Clean Energy: A Conversation with George Hershman

Overview

Cleantechers –

If you've worked in the U.S. clean energy industry, my most recent Scaling Clean guest will be familiar to you — and I'm not bashful about saying he's a great addition to the show. That's because George Hershman is one of the most prominent leaders in U.S. clean energy. He spent his career running SOLV Energy, formerly known as Swinerton Renewable Energy. He also recently served as the Chairman of the Solar Energy Industries Association.

 
SOLV is a widely recognized EPC. It has built 8 GW of utility-scale solar capacity and now manages over 9 GW across more than half the states in this country.

If there is anyone who has collected a lifetime of leadership and management wisdom, it's George.

Here are his B3P’s:

4:30 - You may be eager to take risks right off the bat, but it’s easier for a more mature company to take risks than it is for a new company. If you just started a business, be careful taking risks. Before starting a project, make sure you have the right people and a good understanding of your objectives first.

12:42 - Renewables have moved out of the era of policy dependence and niche markets. Renewables are now the lowest cost of energy and the fastest to deploy. It solves the biggest problems around energy distribution now that we have storage at scale.

23:29 - When interviewing new candidates, it’s important to determine how that person will make you feel comfortable and uncomfortable. When done the right way, people can be transparent and challenge your organization to be better. This is especially important for companies that have low turnover, who may have a narrowed point of view.

Thank you, George, for coming on the show.

Also listen on Apple, Spotify, Radio Public, Amazon Music, iHeart, and Google Podcasts.

Introduction

Mike Casey:
Hey, Cleantechers, welcome back to another episode of Scaling Clean. This is the podcast for Clean Economy CEOs, investors, and the people who advise them. If you've worked in the US clean energy industry for any length of time, my next guest is going to be familiar to you. And I'm not bashful about saying he's a get-for-the-show. That's because George Hershman is one of the biggest leaders in US clean energy. He spent a career running Swinerton Renewable Energy and SOLV Energy. 

SOLV is one of the most recognized EPCs in the country. It's built eight gigawatts of utility-scale solar capacity, and it now manages over nine gigawatts in over half the states in this country. George also recently served as the chairman of the Solar Energy Industries Association. If ever there was someone who's collected a lifetime of leadership and management wisdom, it's George Herscman, and I'm looking forward to talking with and learning from him. George, welcome to the show.

George Hershman:
Well, thank you, Mike, I really appreciate it and you're too kind on the intro.

Early Career and Transition to Renewable Energy

Mike Casey:
Let's start with your background. How would you describe the arc of your career?

George Hershman:
Well, I would say it's much more hill and valley than it is arc. I started in the construction industry straight out of high school, something I always wanted to do. And so it was not glamorous in the beginning, a lot of digging ditches and moving material. But continued a trajectory through commercial construction, which really fast-forwards all the way to 2008 because that's where my renewable story begins. Built a lot of commercial projects between the beginning of my career in 2008. But in 2008, as you can imagine, being part of a large general contractor in California that specialized in commercial office space, hotels, high-rise housing, a lot of things that 2008 was not a very good place to be, is where we started a direct pivot in my career and I think has really changed the trajectory of my entire career. In 2008, we formed a very small group inside of Swinerton. There were only two of us at the time to look at a new and emerging market that was the renewable energy or solar market, mainly funded by the California Solar Initiative. And so, that's where we thought there could be an opportunity to weather a very big storm in 2008, and could be a bridge to building commercial projects again. Ultimately, it became probably the fork in the road that changed my career dramatically. And so ever since we have grown our renewable group to where it is today.

Evolution of Leadership Style

Mike Casey:
If we split-screen footage of you in your first managerial job, when you first started having to account for others, how other people spend their time, that's one side of the screen. On the other side of the screen is footage of you now managing and leading. What differences would we notice?

George Hershman:
I think, early in my career, I was much more of a risk-taker and probably a little too eager to try to drive change. And I think that affected sometimes how I worked with people and worked with customers. I think now, with wisdom and time, and realizing that some of those risks, well, many of them paid off and ended up putting us where we are today. 

It looks a lot different now when you're talking about a business that's doing multi-billion dollars a year. It has thousands of employees and you have to move differently and with more intention and understanding than I did early in my career. I felt like, give me any number of people and I take any hill and we could just do it better and we would muscle through. Now, I think, while I still have a whole lot of that in my personality, I feel like we can conquer anything, I do feel a bit of understanding that having the right people, having the right understanding, going into the projects, whether they are so risky, I don’t mean take risks, just going with better understandings than I did in the beginning. 

The Role of Mentors

Mike Casey:
Did you have mentors who either set you up for that learning journey or helped you along the way of that arc you just described?

George Hershman:
Yeah, I mean, look, I'll go back to my earliest mentors, which are my mom and dad, they probably set me up for a career path that I had. I grew up in a very entrepreneurial household where it was all about looking for opportunities, finding jobs, and growth, and business. It was early mentorship that we probably didn’t realize was mentorship. There was an understanding that taking risks and failure was acceptable. If we were taking appropriate risks and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. And so that was kind of early on. 

Then I was lucky enough to find a really good mentor in my first boss at Swinerton, the division manager who hired me, a gentleman named Donald Davis, who we've remained friends with throughout the years. And as somebody, I always looked to, that gave me a lot of management, mentorship, and interpersonal skills. He really understood how to deal with people on a personal and professional level which made you feel like you were the most important person in the room. And your voice mattered, even though I was a pretty young project manager at the time. And he had a lot of experience, it always felt like our conversations were between peers more than they were between somebody who was far my superior. 

I've tried to bring a lot of that similar trait into my management skills and recognize that a project engineer right out of school might have the best idea out of anybody in a room. Don was always that way and always made you feel like no question was a bad question, and innovate, try to figure out how to do things better. And those all combined, I think have shaped me in my career.

Passion for Clean Energy Industry

Mike Casey:
You shared what got you into the clean economy. I'd like to know what's kept you there over the years. Why do you like it?

George Hershman:
I think that a number of things. One, I love the people in this industry. I love the passion. I love the innovation. Most of my friends now are people that I've done business with and I've grown up together. I love the entrepreneurial spirit.

When we started doing projects in 2008 and 2009 where just trying to figure out a one-megawatt single-axis tracker was a big deal. And relationships that I've built back in those days, I still have today. 

As an optimist, I just think that this industry can do anything. And so I just love the people that I get to do it with. I believe in the mission. This is the right thing to do. I believe that we are in an energy revolution. The world has changed. I grew up in Los Angeles. I remember not being able to have sporting events because of smugglers. I remember not seeing the mountains all growing up in Los Angeles. 

Now I drive to Los Angeles and it's one of the prettiest cities this time of year because you have snow-covered mountains behind the beaches of Malibu. It is completely different. So you can look at it from a pollution standpoint, what the change in the energy economy has done to areas like that. And so it's hard not to believe in the mission. 

And so I can't imagine doing anything else. And, I think that we have a lot of work to do, which is for somebody like me, who loves the challenge every day, this industry has tons of them, and every time I think we have succeeded. I fought really hard as the chair of SEIA to see the IRA passed. And I think we took a victory lap for a little bit and then realized the hard work is yet to come.

Mike Casey:
Yeah, it's at our doorstep.

George Hershman:
And so, yeah, exactly. And we're still fighting for it, right? And we may be fighting for it for years to come. So, I think all of those combined make for such an amazing industry. And it's neat to think you were here during the early years of any industry. When you get to look back and say to folks that come in and people that come in now, I say you can't imagine what it was like back a decade ago. And I'm sure there are tons of industries over time that have that moment, and we're in it now. 

And I get to see a new class of folks come in every year as we bring in new interns or new entrants into this industry. One of the best things I get to do is talk to our intern class every year and tell them, I wish I were 30 years younger and entering this industry today, like you are, because of the change that they're going to see in their career, if they stay in this will be amazing.

Unique Aspects of Leading a Clean Economy Company

Developing Rules and Processes in Real-Time

Mike Casey:
I agree. Well, I would just settle for the 30 years younger part but if I could be 30 years younger and entertaining for you, that would be even better. But okay, cut it. All right, so. We know that you're what we call an original cleantecher, an OC. And what I'm interested in knowing is what are the big shifts you've seen since you got in 2008 all the way till now? Remember coming up in almost 20 years. What are the big changes?

George Hershman:
I think that we've finally grown up as an industry and I don't want to say that prematurely because I think we have growing left to do. But I think that when you look at organizations now and the way that we've built them out, either to deliver services like our business, developers, or power industry now. And being able to move policy like the incumbents of energy have always done because we always were on the sidelines. We were always this kind of niche market and it all relied on tax incentives and it wasn't really an economic business, those days are gone. 

This is the lowest cost of energy. It is the fastest to deploy. It solves the biggest problems around energy distribution now that we have storage at scale. This is a completely different industry than it was before. It is absolutely the energy driver for the US and the world. If we're going change the trajectory of climate in the world and energy production, it's going to be done on solar and storage. And I think that is where the big differences I've seen. Cause I always felt like we were trying to get a seat at the table. 

We always had the incumbent energy companies kind of pushing us back. And now I think the market is driven by economics. And once, you create a situation where economics actually drive decision-making, utilities want this power because it's the lowest cost of energy. It's the fastest to deploy. And, there's an electrification need. And once you've satisfied that, it's no longer-  is this a political climate issue? Is this a green issue? Is this whatever side of the fence you want to be on. When it becomes an economic need, then the industry is limitless. And I think that's where we are today.

Collaborating With Competitors and Clients

Mike Casey:
I imagine that you've been able to compare notes with CEOs running companies in more mature sectors like the one you started in and if that's true from what you've heard and what you've observed is running a clean economy company different than running a company in a more mature sector and if it is what are those differences?

George Hershman:
Can I just say it's a hell of a lot more fun? I have come from a very established industry that had established rules of engagement, had established understanding of how projects and deal structures and who the players were to run a company that essentially was developing the rules while it was in flight. So this is an industry that's been building the plane while we've been flying the plane is so much more rewarding when you get there. 

It's because every year it feels like we're reinventing ourselves, our industry, what the market demands are. I get to have open conversations with the largest developers and my friends in the industry and have an open dialogue about what you need to be successful. How do I shape my company to provide the service that you need? 
And because your needs are changing as projects are getting bigger, financing is getting more complicated, we're turning on projects in phases, so I've got phased energization, I've got plants that are operating while plants are being built, we're adding storage capacity, what does hydrogen do to the mix.

What do you need my company to look like? You need me as a business partner and what does my company need to look like in 2028? Because what is your company going to look like? And what is your service that you're going to be providing? Those kinds of discussions don't happen in established industries, right? 

Because everybody gets in their swim lane. They know exactly what their needs are. They know what their customer base is. There's not that kind of collaboration across client relationships. In this industry uniquely, there's collaboration among competitors. I'm having those same discussions with the five or six other large EPCs in the market we're all talking about how are we going to support this growing industry together. 

Because there's enough for all of us. We jokingly compete. We say we compete on things, but there's enough for everybody. And we're much closer as business partners in an industry where we're all growing together than we are in an established industry where you're absolutely competitive.

Being an Effective CEO

Mike Casey:
Nice. Okay, let me shift over to what it's like to be in your current job. So you quit your job tomorrow. You become a lecturer at UC San Diego Rady School of Business. Your first lecture is ‘The Clean Economy CEO’. How would you describe to your students the role of the effective CEO and what distinct parts of the job as you experience it, would you tell them about and how would you kind of rank them in their order of importance? In other words, what's your job like in a pie chart in its big components?

George Hershman:
I think first and foremost, I would say surround yourself with good people. Being a CEO of an organization is about the people on your team and how you can lead them. I think where people fail in this role as a CEO is that you feel like you need to know everything. You need to be the smartest person in the room. You need to drive from a position of power. I believe that successful teams are led from a supportive position. Where I recognize that I don't know everything and I need to have good, strong people around me to make good decisions. 

Being a good listener, listen more than speak, and empower people to make decisions, good decisions. And then support those decisions. One of the things that I always talk about is that my dad, who I said earlier was one of my biggest mentors, gave me pretty simple advice when I got what was kind of my first real job, which was out of town, going to work for a housing developer and building a big track of homes back in the early 90s. And he just told me, ‘Turn the lights on and turn the lights off’. 


Mike Casey:
I like that.

George Hershman:
And it was more about just being present. Like what you learn from being there and listening and being present while all the decision-making was happening was so vital to understanding what's important, and what priorities are there. And it was really simple, but it's always something I tell to every class of interns that I meet with every year to say that is so valuable - just being in the room and listening. You can't do that remotely. You do that by actually being there. And so I try to do that all the time. That's why I love to be in the office and I love to be around people. I think that's where real decisions are made.

Hiring Process & Engaging Diverse Viewpoints

Mike Casey:
Good. That leads to my next question. Hiring. We hear from people who come on the show routinely that one of the hardest parts about leading organizations is hiring. What have you learned about hiring and making good choices when it comes to team members?

George Hershman:
I think it's important to engage many people on your team. I'm a people person by nature and I'm positive by nature. So I'm not the hardest interviewer in most people. And it usually becomes a likeability contest with me. I'm one of those types of interviewers, but I have an amazing team that I include in all of these decisions, particularly for bringing on a senior member. Somebody who is going to be a real part of our senior leadership team.

It really engages multiple points of view. Everybody has different strengths and different points of view. That's why I love diverse organizations. That's why I push really hard in our program which we call Resolve, which is our diversity program. It's one of our internal initiatives and the only internal initiative that I am the chair of because 

I believe strongly that diverse viewpoints are important. So, DEI and all these things get way over-politicized, but it's simple to me that people with different points of view and different life experiences produce better outcomes, whether that's a problem on a project or hiring the right person. So bringing different people in with different viewpoints gets to better solutions, which means bringing in better people for where your team has those needs.

Understanding Strengths and Weaknesses

Mike Casey:
Got it. Okay. Do you have a go-to interview question? And if so, what does it tell you?

George Hershman:
I don't know that I have a go-to interview question. I think I am, like I said, very much a people person. So I spend a lot of time understanding what makes up a person, what they do outside of work tells me a lot about who they are. What got them here? Why are they interested in this? Is this a job or is this really a part of their kind of internal mission? Where are they gonna make us comfortable, but also make us a little bit uncomfortable?

Because uncomfortable is okay, done in the right way. I want people to challenge us and challenge me and feel comfortable to tell us what they see. One of the things that's interesting about an organization like ours is that we have low turnover. We have a lot of folks that have been here for a long time and we built from within.

And we've grown the organization and continued to grow from within. And sometimes that narrows your point of view. And so bringing in some senior leadership from outside is great to give you a different point of view and allow us to see how things are being done differently. And it's a double-edged sword of low turnover and long-term employees. I'm really proud when we walk into rooms, people recognize our whole team because it's been together for over a decade. I also recognize that that creates some challenges too. And so getting new leadership to think of things differently is important.

Importance of In-Person Interviews

Mike Casey:
Just a few words on in-person versus remote interviewing. How does SOLV deal with the interview process post-pandemic?

George Hershman:
Well, I think that we handle a lot of initial interviews virtually, but I'm a firm believer that you've got to meet people in person whether it's an interview, whether you're interviewing for job opportunities, whether you're meeting new clients pandemic aside. Nothing is better than going out and meeting people. That's the same for interviewing - you have to have them, you have to get them in, meet people face to face, figure out how they're going to interact together. 

I think virtual meetings are fine for certain things and for either first steps, initial interviews with a potential candidate, or later steps from a customer standpoint. I used to say, ‘Don't ever meet somebody first over a Zoom. Go out and meet them first, customer-facing, if you're going to meet a customer, a new customer’. It's become more acceptable now from the Zoom world we're in today. But I still say go out and meet your customers before you ever have a meeting with them on a Zoom call. If you can, meet them in person first.

Navigating Difficult Decisions: Firing Employees

Mike Casey:
Firing people. What have you learned about firing people over the years?

George Hershman:
I, unfortunately, have probably gotten better about firing people. Early in my career, I think you have a sense of what a terrible action having to fire somebody is and how much it hurts you as the manager having to do it. And obviously, it hurts the employee. I think as you grow in your career, you start to see the destruction that nonproductive or even toxic employees do to the rest of your organization and not taking action and getting rid of people holding on too long, which I think is in natural tendency, particularly of young managers, because you think, okay, we can suffer through this or even having them produce 20 % of the time is better than having not having them there and producing zero. I think we all go through that in our careers. And you think about how hard the discussion is going to be. 

Because you move through your career, you start to really understand that the people that you're hurting are not that employee, who you need to get rid of, they’re the people that are staying and that are working around this person that are filling in. The best thing that you can do for everybody, including the person that you're terminating is to take that action because they're likely not productive and happy here. And they may not have the ability or the least of the thought process that they need to make a change and be able to do it. 

So one of the hardest things that you do as a manager of people and a leader of people is to recognize that there is addition by subtraction. Sometimes you have to get rid of people to open up opportunities for other people. And when you do, almost in every instance, I found that we're more successful and the people either underneath that or working around those people are now empowered and they see that you've made the decision and the right decision. Sometimes it's always, ‘What took you so damn long?’ - what I find out more often. Why did you act so slowly? Even though it's easy to if you're not the decision-maker to take that point of view.

Personal Routines for Professional Success

Mike Casey:
Is that the point where you don't believe what people are saying about you, George? Okay. Gotcha. We'd like to close with two questions. The first is, what George Hershman does on the personal front or at the work front to keep George Hershman, the CEO, performing at an optimal level for the greatest amount of time. I've heard a range of answers to this question. Some people get up at 5.30 in the morning. Some people work on antique cars or go to the ballet. Some people don't answer an email before 11 o'clock in the morning. I've heard the range and I'm just endlessly fascinated by how people have found their ways to the most consistent level of high performance and how they treat themselves almost like an athlete, like a pro athlete. What does George Hershman do?

George Hershman:
Yeah, I wish I could say some good things like I go to the gym a lot or I get up and do yoga every morning. But I can't say that unfortunately. I will say that I am an avid sailor and sailboat racer. I have a racing sailboat and a team of people and it gives me a good distraction. Because there's always prep going on. We're practicing. I'm thinking about when I can take time away from thinking about work it gives me a unique distraction and every once in a while puts me on the water for a long period of time where I can kind of get away from work. But I say that interesting this is not a job I want to get away from. I truly love this job. I truly appreciate what we do, appreciate the people we do it with. So it's not like I need a release and a getaway, but I think everybody needs something outside of their day-to-day that they can focus on that they maybe don't have the same level of proficiency.

Taking Calculated Risks and Opportunities

Mike Casey:
Last question, is success in business more reliant on what you choose not to do or what you choose to do?

George Hershman:
I'm a choose-to-doer, for sure. The answer is yes until there's a good reason to say no.  I think that one of the pictures I had growing up was Wayne Gretzky’s quote, that was, ‘You miss 100 % of the shots you never take’. And so I think that is something that I believe wholeheartedly in business is that it is all about what you do. 

That’s probably got us in trouble once in a while. There are probably some projects and some things that we shouldn't have done, but we learned from them all. Nothing was done without a learning opportunity. We're better at building difficult projects because we had a difficult project. And if we never took that difficult project, we might have been better off at the moment. We're not better off in the long run.

Closing Thoughts

Mike Casey:
George Hershman, I am grateful to you for coming on this show and I wanted to have you on for a while. I felt like I kind of had to build up to this to really be able to tap years of leadership wisdom. Really appreciate what you did for us as an industry, as the head of SEIA. And thanks for all that you're doing. I really appreciate it.

George Hershman:
Well, thanks, Mike. I appreciate it and I really appreciate what you do for the industry and the fact that you get the stories out. This industry needs storytellers. It needs people to understand what a great industry it is with amazing industry leaders. So I really appreciate the time. Thank you, Mike.

Mike Casey:
Thanks, George.